Curse

Proud Elitist · Jan 25, 2008, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Pvper

Comments n suggestions are welcomed

Anyone who simply pre-prots with anything, or kites, can stop that "spike." A simple Guardian will beat it.

Proud Elitist · Jan 25, 2008, 12:48 PM // 12:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by lennymon

What I don't get is why everyone insists on using hornbows with sundering and penetrating. While it's true that hornbows do have inherent AP, it's also true that it doesn't stack with the AP from skills. Go shortbow powah!

People shouldn't be running Sundering on anything. People run Vampiric Hornbows to spike because they deal more damage and the spike has a controlled attack speed variable; in this case, the controlled attack speed is 1 second.

The problem with using Shortbows to spike is that it is very predictable. The Ranger moves up to the target past the aggro circle and then the, "hand is read," so to speak. The pre-prot goes up and the spike is lost.

SIDE NOTE:

With regards to what adds armor penetration and what has a set value:

You guys are reading too much into this. It is very easy to tell what adds armor penetration and what has a set value. Look to see if the armor penetration has a ,"+" in front of it; that means it adds armor penetration. If it does not have that in front of it, it is a set amount of armor penetration.

For example, Penetrating Shot has a set armor penetration. So if someone was using a Hornbow with Penetrating Shot, your armor penetration would only be 20%. However if you had a Sundering mod on, which I strongly advise not doing, that triggered when activating Penetrating Shot, then that Sundering mod would add 20% armor penetration on the 20% armor penetration of Penetrating Shot for a total of 40% armor penetration.

Again, I strongly recommend not arming a Sundering mod because the damage output, compared to a Vampiric mod, is pale in comparison.

Amy Awien · Jan 25, 2008, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Your guideline does not conform with tests, which show that a Penetrating Attack with hornbow does have 30% armor penetration.

Wakka · Jan 25, 2008, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

For example, Penetrating Shot has a set armor penetration. So if someone was using a Hornbow with Penetrating Shot, your armor penetration would only be 20%. However if you had a Sundering mod on, which I strongly advise not doing, that triggered when activating Penetrating Shot, then that Sundering mod would add 20% armor penetration on the 20% armor penetration of Penetrating Shot for a total of 40% armor penetration.

Yah this is wrong.

I tested it on the isle of nameless against a 60 AL target, Marksman 14, No mods at all on the bow. I tested with a Hornbow and a Recurve bow.

Whenever I achieved a sundering with the Recurve Bow, it was 80 damage everytime. When I achieved a sundering with the Hornbow it was 87.

Scourgey · Jan 25, 2008, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proud Elitist

With regards to what adds armor penetration and what has a set value:

Use the wiki guildlines instead, what you posted is incorrect.

lennymon · Jan 25, 2008, 04:21 PM // 16:21

[skill]Sundering Attack[/skill] not sundering mod...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proud Elitist

People shouldn't be running Sundering on anything. People run Vampiric Hornbows to spike because they deal more damage and the spike has a controlled attack speed variable; in this case, the controlled attack speed is 1 second.

The problem with using Shortbows to spike is that it is very predictable. The Ranger moves up to the target past the aggro circle and then the, "hand is read," so to speak. The pre-prot goes up and the spike is lost.

SIDE NOTE:

With regards to what adds armor penetration and what has a set value:

You guys are reading too much into this. It is very easy to tell what adds armor penetration and what has a set value. Look to see if the armor penetration has a ,"+" in front of it; that means it adds armor penetration. If it does not have that in front of it, it is a set amount of armor penetration.

For example, Penetrating Shot has a set armor penetration. So if someone was using a Hornbow with Penetrating Shot, your armor penetration would only be 20%. However if you had a Sundering mod on, which I strongly advise not doing, that triggered when activating Penetrating Shot, then that Sundering mod would add 20% armor penetration on the 20% armor penetration of Penetrating Shot for a total of 40% armor penetration.

Again, I strongly recommend not arming a Sundering mod because the damage output, compared to a Vampiric mod, is pale in comparison.

Proud Elitist · Jan 25, 2008, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wakka

Whenever I achieved a sundering with the Recurve Bow, it was 80 damage everytime. When I achieved a sundering with the Hornbow it was 87.

Interesting. I've read other information from other sites that states Penetrating Shot has a set value. Since I really don't spike with the Ranger, since it is a bad idea, I really just regarded the AP info as the correct information. I think I need to test this out now.

I have one question: Where did the Sundering mod come from when you tested the Hornbow?

Proud Elitist · Jan 25, 2008, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scourgey

Use the wiki guildlines instead, what you posted is incorrect.

I commenced a test. My conclusions are that the 10% AP from Hornbow is additive and not a set amount.

I attacked a 60 armor level target with an A/R with:

12 Marksmanship
12 Critical Strikes

I used a plain Recurve Bow with +15% damage mod.

I also used a plain Hornbow with +15% damage mod.

I used Penetrating Attack with both bows on a level surface.

I got an 82 critical hit with the Recurve Bow while using Penetrating Attack.

I got a 90 critical hit with the Hornbow while using Penetrating Attack.

So my conclusions are that Hornbow AP is additive and not a set amount, as Wiki states.

Warning:

Again, I strongly advise people not to spike with Rangers since the spike is easily negated with even the simplest spell like Guardian.

Grammar · Jan 26, 2008, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proud Elitist

So my conclusions are that Hornbow AP is additive and not a set amount, as Wiki states.

Wiki does NOT say that.
Wiki says it correctly: AP from Hornbows and sunderding mods are bonus AP, which stacks with all forms of bonus AP as well as base AP (such as Penetrating Attack).

So Penetrating Attack + hornbow + sundering (when it specs) = 45% AP

The only AP that doesn't stack is multiple forms of base AP, such as strength and Penetrating Chop for example.

Tyla · Jan 26, 2008, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proud Elitist

Warning:

Again, I strongly advise people not to spike with Rangers since the spike is easily negated with even the simplest spell like Guardian.

All physical spikes are - thats why people usually run enchantment removal on spikes.
Also looking at your targets - Guardian requires good field observation to be any good aswell, imo.

Pyro maniac · Jan 26, 2008, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proud Elitist

Warning:

Again, I strongly advise people not to spike with Rangers since the spike is easily negated with even the simplest spell like Guardian.

guardian is a 1 sec pre-prot. It's actually harder to catch ranger spikes with it then adrenaline spikes. You don't see ranged spikes coming, while you do see warrior spikes since they have to walk to the target.
Only problem is that ranger spikes doesn't do that much damage, as you need more rangers then warriors to complete the spike

Proud Elitist · Jan 26, 2008, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Also looking at your targets - Guardian requires good field observation to be any good aswell, imo.

You expect your opponent to be dumb? I know I wouldn't.

Ranger spikes are not practical. Most of the time, spikes require these three things: A) Enchantment Removal B) A knockdown C) Most importantly, pressure outside of the spike.

Quote:

guardian is a 1 sec pre-prot. It's actually harder to catch ranger spikes with it then adrenaline spikes. You don't see ranged spikes coming

Any monk worth their weight can see a Ranger team spiking with, first, at least a 2 second attack (Flatbow) and react to it. So yes, any monk that knows what their doing can see a Ranger spike coming.

Frankly, if someone is a mediocre monk, all they would do is ether cast a prot spirit or an RoF + Guardian.

Not to mention the Ranger doesn't have the energy regen required to frequently spike (no pressure); Expertise plays well in the long run, but not in drastic energy fluctuations.

Proud Elitist · Jan 26, 2008, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

Wiki does NOT say that.
Wiki says it correctly: AP from Hornbows and sunderding mods are bonus AP, which stacks with all forms of bonus AP as well as base AP (such as Penetrating Attack).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guild Wars Wiki

Bonus armor penetration

Bonus armor penetration is an additional amount of armor penetration, such as "Armor penetration 20%." These do stack and add to the largest base armor penetration.

Seems like it says it adds it, but then again it may be wrong. I was doing some calculations and it doesn't come out quite right when you just simply add the Armor Penetration together.

Here.

Tyla · Jan 26, 2008, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proud Elitist

You expect your opponent to be dumb? I know I wouldn't.

How do you think Shock Axe's get used in GvG?
Does that mean all monks in GvG are stupid?
Switch targets when Guardian goes up.

How do you think RangerSpike in HA works?

Crit-scythe?
Wounding Strike Spike?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proud Elitist

Any monk worth their weight can see a Ranger team spiking with, first, at least a 2 second attack (Flatbow) and react to it. So yes, any monk that knows what their doing can see a Ranger spike coming.

Not to mention the Ranger doesn't have the energy regen required to frequently spike (no pressure); Expertise plays well in the long run, but not in drastic energy fluctuations.

LOLWUT?
You ever played rangerspike?
Also - at the "no pressure" comment - ever heard of condition pressure?

Also - people use Vampiric Hornbows, and FW should be up during spiking.
Also, again - Flatbows/Longbows suck in PvP.
Please go away, you make me sad.

Stormlord Alex · Jan 26, 2008, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Also, again - Flatbows/Longbows suck in PvP.

I'm the only guy packing a vamp flat for NPCs?

(well... hardly PvP, but whatever

)

Otherwise, /agreed

Need my pics

Bloody laptop

Tyla · Jan 26, 2008, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

I'm the only guy packing a vamp flat for NPCs?

(well... hardly PvP, but whatever

)

Otherwise, /agreed

Need my pics

Bloody laptop

Okay, they're only good for ranging out NPC shrines in AB!!

If only AB counted as a PvP game though...

Proud Elitist · Jan 26, 2008, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

How do you think Shock Axe's get used in GvG?
Does that mean all monks in GvG are stupid?
Switch targets when Guardian goes up.

Shock Axe is not the only thing that spikes in a GvG match. It is not a pure spike team/build. Do not compare Ranger spike to a Balanced build.

Quote:

How do you think RangerSpike in HA works?

If playing against a good team, Ranger Spike does not work (thank god).

Quote:

Also - at the "no pressure" comment - ever heard of condition pressure?

Yes I have though I'm unaware of where someone can get that in a Ranger spike besides maybe the conditional Glass Arrows.

Quote:

Also - people use Vampiric Hornbows, and FW should be up during spiking.
Also, again - Flatbows/Longbows suck in PvP.
Please go away, you make me sad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

Bows
Bow selection is often overlooked by most people, but is significant in clutch plays for an experienced ranger. We’ll start with a basic overview of the types of bows. Though you can get the more technical information from wiki, what I provide should be enough for you to setup your bowsets.
From this table, 1= shortest range, lowest arc, and slowest refire rate. 4= the greatest of each, respectively.

Rankings are listed in order of range, arc, and refire rate.
Flatbow 3 3 4
Longbow 3 2 2
Recurve 2 1 2
Shortbow 1 2 4
Hornbow 2 2 1

For pvp, the most commonly used bow is the recurve bow. However, each bow has its uses in certain situations. The following provides situations where each may be used. Hornbow’s aren’t included since the only time you’ll ever use one is if you’re ranger spiking.

Recurve Bow: Its high accuracy and decent range makes for it to be the best choice for interrupts and cripshot. The best all around bow. Use a +30hp grip, and for each set of strings, make sure to have a 15^50 and +5 energy copy of the bow. So, for example, if you have a crippling recurve bow, have one be a 15^50, and another +5e. Start in your 15^50 set, and move to a +5 when necessary. If you're running burning arrow, use a poison recurve with 15^50 and etc.

Flatbow: This is pretty much only used for taking down archers. You’ll want a vamp flatbow (5/1) with a 15%/-5 energy mod and +30hp, since taking down archers is optimal with the highest possible dps. Accuracy isn’t important. Also, if you're running broadhead arrow, be sure to have a silencing flatbow, since arc is irrelevant when using BHA.

Shortbow: Useful for taking out close range targets like knights or snared targets like flaggers. Can also sometimes be used at the stand in close quarters, where they have a better cooldown time between attacks, so interrupts can be timed more appropriately. However, they also have reduced accuracy, making them fairly easy to dodge. For shortbow mods, use the same as you would with your recurve, except also have a 5/1, 15%/-5e copy for knights and footmen.

Longbow: What you should be using right as the match starts. Most teams put up their forms, aegis, preps, and etc outside of your normal range. Rushing with a longbow gives you the chance of getting an early interrupt, and thus an early advantage. In addition, longbows are useful for crippling targets just out of range, or finishing a target that’s almost dead by reapplying duration of poison. Even though the accuracy is significantly lower than that of a recurve, the longbow is still useful in very specific situations. For cripshot, a 15^50, poisonous longbow w/ +30hp is optimal.

Hornbow: Pretty much never used in pvp outside of spike. Don’t bother.

Here is the link for more information.

Tyla · Jan 26, 2008, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proud Elitist

Shock Axe is not the only thing that spikes in a GvG match. It is not a pure spike team/build. Do not compare Ranger spike to a Balanced build.

Shock Axe is still a fricken STRONG spiker in any PvP format.

Quote:

If playing against a good team, Ranger Spike does not work (thank god).

Perfect Spikes are hard to stop.
And rangerspike is one of the hardest spikes to stop.

Quote:

Yes I have though I'm unaware of where someone can get that in a Ranger spike besides maybe the conditional Glass Arrows.

D-shot maybe?
The damage given off from the entire damage stack is the pressure.

Proud Elitist · Jan 26, 2008, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

D-shot maybe?
The damage given off from the entire damage stack is the pressure.

I'm aware of interrupts being ideal pressure means, since the current metagame Ranger, Crip Shot, runs ALL pressure:

A) Condition Spreading

B) Movement Control

C) Interrupts

D) Skirmishing

Though I thought we were talking about a Penetrating Attack spike here, not interrupts.

Tyla · Jan 26, 2008, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proud Elitist

Though I thought we were talking about a Penetrating Attack spike here.

PAttack spike...
Doubt it'll go anywhere near the power of normal RangerSpike, anyway.
But it is quite powerful - although i still prefer Cripshotting in AB with SLS, or in the case of GvG, replacing res with it.(Mind you, Warriors will be powering spikes)